Discussion:
C++ in projectbuilder
(too old to reply)
Mike Vannorsdel
2000-10-01 09:00:59 UTC
Permalink
<flushleft><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><x-tabstops><param>28L;56L;84L;112L;140L;168L;196L;224L;252L;280L;308L;336L;</param>Is there anyway to use C++ in projectbuilder rather than Obj-C? I'm a C++ programmer but I don't know Obj-C or Java.

</x-tabstops></fontfamily><fontfamily><param>Lucida Grande</param><x-tabstops><param>0L;28L;56L;84L;112L;140L;168L;196L;224L;252L;280L;308L;336L;</param>
--
If builders built buildings the way Windows programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.</x-tabstops></fontfamily></flushleft>
Steven Noyes
2000-10-01 11:21:26 UTC
Permalink
You can use project builder to write C++ but it is not well
supported. All of the files will go under "other sources"
and you will not have access to Cocoa under C++ as the object
models are very different.

C++, however, does work and might be a good solution to
working with Carbon. I have not done any Carbon, so I am
guessing at this last statement.

[ On Sunday, October 1, 2000, at 06:01 AM, Mike Vannorsdel wrote:
[
[ Is there anyway to use C++ in projectbuilder rather than Obj-C? I'm
[a C++ programmer but I don't know Obj-C or Java.
Mike Vannorsdel
2000-10-01 11:39:25 UTC
Permalink
<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>That's about what I figured. I looked into do carbon apps but carbon seemed a real pain to me and cocoa is much easier. Guess I'll have to learn Obj-C.


On Sunday, October 1, 2000, at 07:24 AM, Steven Noyes wrote:


<italic>You can use project builder to write C++ but it is not well</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>supported. All of the files will go under "other sources"</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>and you will not have access to Cocoa under C++ as the object</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>models are very different.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>C++, however, does work and might be a good solution to </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>working with Carbon. I have not done any Carbon, so I am </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>guessing at this last statement.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>[ On Sunday, October 1, 2000, at 06:01 AM, Mike Vannorsdel wrote:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>[ </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>[ Is there anyway to use C++ in projectbuilder rather than Obj-C? I'm</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>[a C++ programmer but I don't know Obj-C or Java.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>_______________________________________________</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>MacOSX-dev mailing list</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>MacOSX-***@omnigroup.com</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-dev</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>
Mike Vannorsdel
2000-10-01 12:35:27 UTC
Permalink
<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>Where do I go about finding info on Obj-C? All I have found was just what Apple has at their dev site.


On Sunday, October 1, 2000, at 08:33 AM, Eric Peyton wrote:


<italic>It's not very hard to learn ObjC - it will probably take you all of 2</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>days. Learning the frameworks is harder - but that's what this group is </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>for. Good luck.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>Eric</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>On Sun, 1 Oct 2000, Mike Vannorsdel wrote:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<fontfamily><<param>Helvetica<</param>That's about what I figured. I looked into do carbon apps but carbon seemed a real pain to me and cocoa is much easier. Guess I'll have to learn Obj-C.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> On Sunday, October 1, 2000, at 07:24 AM, Steven Noyes wrote:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic>You can use project builder to write C++ but it is not well<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>supported. All of the files will go under "other sources"<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>and you will not have access to Cocoa under C++ as the object<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>models are very different.<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>C++, however, does work and might be a good solution to <</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>working with Carbon. I have not done any Carbon, so I am <</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>guessing at this last statement.<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>[ On Sunday, October 1, 2000, at 06:01 AM, Mike Vannorsdel wrote:<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>[ <</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>[ Is there anyway to use C++ in projectbuilder rather than Obj-C? I'm<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>[a C++ programmer but I don't know Obj-C or Java.<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>_______________________________________________<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>MacOSX-dev mailing list<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>MacOSX-***@omnigroup.com<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> <<italic><</italic><</color><<italic>http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-dev<</italic><<color><<param>0000,0000,0000<</param></italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> _______________________________________________</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> MacOSX-dev mailing list</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> MacOSX-***@omnigroup.com</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-dev</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> </italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>Eric Peyton</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>***@epicware.com</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>Software and Source for Mac OS X</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>
Andreas Monitzer
2000-10-01 13:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Vannorsdel
Where do I go about finding info on Obj-C? All I have found was just what Apple has at their
dev site.
ObjC is different. There's no ANSI ObjC, so everything you can use has to be written for Cocoa.
Apple's ObjC-introduction is very dry, but if you read the first two or three chapters, you're ready for a first application (maybe have a look at the examples included on the developer CD).
The most important part is to understand Outlets and Actions.

andy
mmalcolm crawford
2000-10-01 17:26:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Monitzer
ObjC is different. There's no ANSI ObjC, so everything you can use has to be
written for Cocoa.
This is perhaps a little misleading, since in particular the GNUstep project
seems to be doing reasonably well:
http://www.gnustep.org/
Post by Andreas Monitzer
Apple's ObjC-introduction is very dry,
"Concise" might be a better adjective...
Post by Andreas Monitzer
but if you read the first two or three chapters, you're ready for a
first application (maybe have a look at the examples included on
the developer CD).
Certainly.
Post by Andreas Monitzer
The most important part is to understand Outlets and Actions.
And I certainly found these the most confusing things when I started, mainly
because I don't recall having seen a definition anywhere of what they are
and why they're special.

For newcomers to the technology:

An Outlet is just a instance variable, like any other ivar in a class, but
it's likely to be connected to a UI widget.

An Action is a method, just like any other method, except that it takes a
single "sender" argument, and it's likely to be called by a UI widget.
The "sender" argument is usually the widget that sends the message.

Also important is "Target", which is simply the object to which a widget
such as a button sends its Action message.


And to step back to get a bigger picture view; the reason the
"target-action" paradigm/pattern is important is that both are able to be
changed at runtime. Target and Action are both instance variables in a
widget: target is a pointer to another object (typically a "controller" in
the Model-View-Controller pattern) as above; action is a "selector", a
method identifier. It's this action/selector which causes some folks a
little trouble...

Consider a simple example app which allows the user to start and stop a
timer. We want a single "Start" button which is initialised to start a
timer, and then needs to toggle to become a "Stop" button.

Rather than just changing the button's title and looking for this in a
generic startStop: method, we can actually toggle the action that the button
sends at runtime. The target's start: method might therefore send a message
back to the sender to set its action to stop: (and vice versa).

mmalc.
(warming up to teach a Cocoa course next week :-)
Mike Ferris
2000-10-01 17:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Noyes
You can use project builder to write C++ but it is not well
supported. All of the files will go under "other sources"
and you will not have access to Cocoa under C++ as the object
models are very different.
C++, however, does work and might be a good solution to
working with Carbon. I have not done any Carbon, so I am
guessing at this last statement.
It sounds like you are describing ProjectBuilderWO, not the new ProjectBuilder.

C++ is much better supported in the new ProjectBuilder. A great deal of C++ code that is part of OS X is managed and compiled with the new ProjectBuilder.

However, you are definitely correct that C++ is not a viable language for Cocoa development (although it can be used for aspects of an app that do not touch Cocoa directly while Cocoa-specific code is written in Obj-C or Java).

In Public Beta, the one big drawback in the new ProjectBuilder is that indexing of C++ did not quite make it.

Mike Ferris
Andreas Monitzer
2000-10-01 17:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by mmalcolm crawford
Post by Andreas Monitzer
ObjC is different. There's no ANSI ObjC, so everything you can use has to be
written for Cocoa.
This is perhaps a little misleading, since in particular the GNUstep project
http://www.gnustep.org/
GNUStep is only a copy of Apple's Cocoa-API. That doesn't mean that it's a standard.
Post by mmalcolm crawford
Post by Andreas Monitzer
Apple's ObjC-introduction is very dry,
"Concise" might be a better adjective...
I don't think so. It's pretty long, and most things are not important for the first programs (class clusters and message forwarding for example).
Post by mmalcolm crawford
mmalc.
(warming up to teach a Cocoa course next week :-)
Things like this are taught somewhere? Cool.

andy
Gérard Iglesias
2000-10-01 19:02:28 UTC
Permalink
<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>At he beginning (a long time ago…:-) ), I found something very hard to understand, it was the file's owner in the nib document in IB.


It is a proxy to the object that is the owner of the nib file. For example the mainMenu.nib is owned by NSApp, in doc based app the MyDocument.nib owner is the MyDocument instance created when a new document is requested.


Hence all the connections made in IB from/to the file's owner will be made from/to the MyDocument instance during the nib loading process.


The nib file is loaded with the help of the statement (for example):


[NSBundle loadNibNamed:aNibName owner:theOwner]


Sincerely.


Gérard


<flushleft><italic><x-tabstops><param>28L;56L;84L;112L;140L;168L;196L;224L;252L;280L;308L;336L;</param>--

***@mac.com

Ph.D. in Computer Graphics

Project manager at www.visiotics.com


</x-tabstops></italic></flushleft>
mmalcolm crawford
2000-10-02 11:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Monitzer
Post by mmalcolm crawford
Post by Andreas Monitzer
ObjC is different. There's no ANSI ObjC, so everything you can use has to be
written for Cocoa.
This is perhaps a little misleading, since in particular the GNUstep project
http://www.gnustep.org/
GNUStep is only a copy of Apple's Cocoa-API. That doesn't mean that it's a
standard.
Umm, I wasn't making any claims about whether or not it's a standard
(although OpenStep is in theory a standard), just about where else you can
use Obj-C outside of Apple's products.
Post by Andreas Monitzer
Post by mmalcolm crawford
Post by Andreas Monitzer
Apple's ObjC-introduction is very dry,
"Concise" might be a better adjective...
I don't think so. It's pretty long, and most things are not important for the
first programs (class clusters and message forwarding for example).
Again, just because some of the material is not immediately relevant does
not mean it is not concise. Given the range of material covered I think it
is a commendably short book. I've seen much fatter tomes which wafle round
the subject which still manage to convey less information.
Post by Andreas Monitzer
Post by mmalcolm crawford
(warming up to teach a Cocoa course next week :-)
Things like this are taught somewhere? Cool.
OPENSTEP courses have always been available; some places are starting now to
ramp up on Cocoa training...

mmalc.
Frederic Stark
2000-10-02 14:16:41 UTC
Permalink
(I post this to osx-dev, so maybe someone could help me solving a
few of those problems. But it is probably a bit off-topic)
Post by Mike Ferris
In Public Beta, the one big drawback in the new ProjectBuilder is
that indexing of
Post by Mike Ferris
C++ did not quite make it.
Uh. Do you mean that the new ProjectBuilder actually work for someone ?

I must have a broken configuration somewhere, or have to get used to
it (I only started using MOSX at the public beta release this
week-end), but I would have a tendency to say that PBX is a drawback
by itself.

First, it is slow as hell. The nice little panes try to animate, or
something, but the net result is annoyingly sluggish on a G4/400 (ie:
press Command-Shift-X, the build starts a couple of seconds later).

Second, I have yet to find how to do file level auto-completion. You
know, the little 'esc' thing that completed based on words present
in the current view.

Second-and-a-half, there was a nice little thing in PB that enabled
to do project-wide auto-completion. Option-ESC. So I could type "-
(void)appl" Option-ESC to get '-
(void)applicationWillFinishLaunching'. This didn't work every time
(why ? I would have prefered that those outstanding bugs been fixed,
instead of having to deal with yet-another rewrite of PB) but is/was
pretty handy. I have trouble to find it in PBX. Does it exists ?

Third, I wonder how to open documentation. Double-clicking on a
documentation icon (in the find pane) don't give me anything, most of
the time. And the few cases where I had documentaiton I discovered
that I couldn't select parts of it. What a joke.

Fourth, the indexer often dies. PBX too, sometimes. I can understand
that, it is beta.

Fifth, switching from source to headers often don't work. Working
with teared-off windows seems to be even more difficult than with
previous PB.

Sixth, each new release of dev environment from NeXT/Apple seems to
rewrite the indenting routines. Each time, people doing it forget
that there are people (me, for instance), that write code like:

- (void)doSometing
{ [self doSomethingElse];
[self doSomethingElseAgain];
}

PBX is unable to indent that. It seems impossible to politely ask PB
to use real tabs, and to display them with a 4 char space, and to
stop trying to auto-indent. All the code I write is magically badly
indented by PBX, and tabs are filled with spaces so it is a hell to
correct (I tried to play with preferences, but it didn't seem to
work).

In one word, I dislike the new PB almost as much as I dislike the
new Desktop (don't get me started on this Desktop application.
Please)

One final word. We've been promised
text-based-nib-files-in-the-next-release for several years now. I
have been very surprised to find that MOSX still have binary nib
files. Are those XML-based nib somewhere or is it again a
wait-for-next-release thingy ? I cannot switch to MOSX because nib
files break compatibility for OSXS and YB/NT. I can hack around
almost any problem, but not this one. AFAIK, opening a nib file with
MOSX means it is not compatible anymore with anything else. A real
show-stopper here.

Cheers,

--fred
Eric Peyton
2000-10-02 14:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ferris
Post by Mike Ferris
In Public Beta, the one big drawback in the new ProjectBuilder is
that indexing of
Post by Mike Ferris
C++ did not quite make it.
Uh. Do you mean that the new ProjectBuilder actually work for someone ?
That's just rude. I know the new ProjectBuilder leaves a few things to be
desired, but it kicks the cr** out of the old ProjectBuilder as a general
purpose IDE and development tool. It's getting better all the time. It
is beta after all, and completely new code ...
Post by Mike Ferris
I must have a broken configuration somewhere, or have to get used to
it (I only started using MOSX at the public beta release this
week-end), but I would have a tendency to say that PBX is a drawback
by itself.
First, it is slow as hell. The nice little panes try to animate, or
press Command-Shift-X, the build starts a couple of seconds later).
Do you have your projects indexed? The new PB builds only slightly slower
than going to the command line and hitting pbxbuild.
Post by Mike Ferris
Second, I have yet to find how to do file level auto-completion. You
know, the little 'esc' thing that completed based on words present
in the current view.
Did you try hitting F5? That's the default for completion. Works fine
for me on one machine. On the other machine I have it set to use esc in my
~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict - see old posts on this (or
the text documentation with OS X).
Post by Mike Ferris
Second-and-a-half, there was a nice little thing in PB that enabled
to do project-wide auto-completion. Option-ESC. So I could type "-
(void)appl" Option-ESC to get '-
(void)applicationWillFinishLaunching'. This didn't work every time
(why ? I would have prefered that those outstanding bugs been fixed,
instead of having to deal with yet-another rewrite of PB) but is/was
pretty handy. I have trouble to find it in PBX. Does it exists ?
You need to index your projects for this to work. I believe Mike Ferris
discussed this in a post last week.
Post by Mike Ferris
Third, I wonder how to open documentation. Double-clicking on a
documentation icon (in the find pane) don't give me anything, most of
the time. And the few cases where I had documentaiton I discovered
that I couldn't select parts of it. What a joke.
I don't think that yet works in PBX.
Post by Mike Ferris
Fourth, the indexer often dies. PBX too, sometimes. I can understand
that, it is beta.
PBX only consistently dies on me when I am closing projects.
Post by Mike Ferris
Fifth, switching from source to headers often don't work. Working
with teared-off windows seems to be even more difficult than with
previous PB.
Yes, and there are myriad radars against this if I remember.
Post by Mike Ferris
Sixth, each new release of dev environment from NeXT/Apple seems to
rewrite the indenting routines. Each time, people doing it forget
- (void)doSometing
{ [self doSomethingElse];
[self doSomethingElseAgain];
}
PBX is unable to indent that. It seems impossible to politely ask PB
to use real tabs, and to display them with a 4 char space, and to
stop trying to auto-indent. All the code I write is magically badly
indented by PBX, and tabs are filled with spaces so it is a hell to
correct (I tried to play with preferences, but it didn't seem to
work).
In one word, I dislike the new PB almost as much as I dislike the
new Desktop (don't get me started on this Desktop application.
Please)
Then file bugs, don't publically bitch in a forum where it will do no
good. Do something about it. File bugs. That's what filing bugs is for.
File bugs. Can I say it again. File bugs.
Post by Mike Ferris
One final word. We've been promised
text-based-nib-files-in-the-next-release for several years now. I
have been very surprised to find that MOSX still have binary nib
files. Are those XML-based nib somewhere or is it again a
wait-for-next-release thingy ? I cannot switch to MOSX because nib
files break compatibility for OSXS and YB/NT. I can hack around
almost any problem, but not this one. AFAIK, opening a nib file with
MOSX means it is not compatible anymore with anything else. A real
show-stopper here.
Yep - that is too bad. File a bug.

Eric
Post by Mike Ferris
Cheers,
--fred
_______________________________________________
MacOSX-dev mailing list
http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-dev
Eric Peyton
***@epicware.com

Software and Source for Mac OS X
Frederic Stark
2000-10-02 16:07:31 UTC
Permalink
First, I'd like to apology because the original post seemed rude.
(Well, it was, but let me pretend the opposite :-)). Second I totally
forgot that the dev tools were not part of Mac OS X public beta, so
I technically broke my NDA there. Not good.
Post by Eric Peyton
Post by Mike Ferris
Post by Mike Ferris
In Public Beta, the one big drawback in the new ProjectBuilder is
that indexing of
Post by Mike Ferris
C++ did not quite make it.
Uh. Do you mean that the new ProjectBuilder actually work for
someone ?
Post by Eric Peyton
That's just rude. I know the new ProjectBuilder leaves a few
things to be
Post by Eric Peyton
desired, but it kicks the cr** out of the old ProjectBuilder as a
general
Post by Eric Peyton
purpose IDE and development tool. It's getting better all the
time. It
Post by Eric Peyton
is beta after all, and completely new code ...
<rant>
That's the thing that makes me crazy. I may be the only one to think
that here, but the old ProjectBuilder was perfectly usable, could be
vastly improved upon, and had dozen of outstanding bugs. I already
bitched (privately) against this desire to rewrite a working
application instead of fixing its (reported) bugs.

Switching IDE is a pain. I still have "Command-0/Control click on
methods" editing reflex from NeXTstep 3.x (that was a *cool*
feature), even if I use the 'new' PB 8 hours a day on the average for
the last 3 years.
</rant>

[crunch]
Post by Eric Peyton
Did you try hitting F5? That's the default for completion. Works fine
for me on one machine. On the other machine I have it set to use
esc in my
Post by Eric Peyton
~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict - see old posts on
this (or
Post by Eric Peyton
the text documentation with OS X).
Thanks. I'm stupid about this one. I already did that in OSXS.
{ "\033" = "complete:";
}

I even added a few private commands, and a PB plugin that added
categories on NSText in PB. I'll try to see if there a plugin
architecture for PBX.
Post by Eric Peyton
Post by Mike Ferris
Second-and-a-half, there was a nice little thing in PB that enabled
to do project-wide auto-completion. Option-ESC. So I could type "-
(void)appl" Option-ESC to get '-
(void)applicationWillFinishLaunching'.
[crunch]
Post by Eric Peyton
You need to index your projects for this to work. I believe Mike
Ferris
Post by Eric Peyton
discussed this in a post last week.
I indexed my test project, but it didn't work. I'll check that
again. [And I'll file a bug :-)]

[crunch]
Post by Eric Peyton
Then file bugs, don't publically bitch in a forum where it will do no
good.
It sometime does. You reminded me about 'DefaultKeyBinding.dict'. :-)
Post by Eric Peyton
Do something about it. File bugs. That's what filing bugs is for.
File bugs. Can I say it again. File bugs.
Okay, okay. I'll fill a few dozen of bugs.
Post by Eric Peyton
Post by Mike Ferris
One final word. We've been promised
text-based-nib-files-in-the-next-release for several years now. I
have been very surprised to find that MOSX still have binary nib
files. Are those XML-based nib somewhere or is it again a
wait-for-next-release thingy ? I cannot switch to MOSX because nib
files break compatibility for OSXS and YB/NT. I can hack around
almost any problem, but not this one. AFAIK, opening a nib file
with
Post by Eric Peyton
Post by Mike Ferris
MOSX means it is not compatible anymore with anything else. A real
show-stopper here.
Yep - that is too bad. File a bug.
I remember asking this to Jean Marie Hulot himself. Life repeat
itself. I'll file this too.

Cheers,

--fred
Eric Peyton
2000-10-02 16:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederic Stark
<rant>
That's the thing that makes me crazy. I may be the only one to think
that here, but the old ProjectBuilder was perfectly usable, could be
vastly improved upon, and had dozen of outstanding bugs. I already
bitched (privately) against this desire to rewrite a working
application instead of fixing its (reported) bugs.
Switching IDE is a pain. I still have "Command-0/Control click on
methods" editing reflex from NeXTstep 3.x (that was a *cool*
feature), even if I use the 'new' PB 8 hours a day on the average for
the last 3 years.
</rant>
Okay - look at it from Apple's point of view. They can either fix up a
good, but unusable outside of ObjC/Java/C IDE tool that just "works" for a
few hundred, maybe a few thousand developers, or they can start from
scratch and develope a tool for tens of thousands of developers the works
with C and ObjC and Java and C++. The old project builder worked great
for thoise of us who coded ObjC/Next/Openstep apps for the last 8+ years.
For everyone else it was confusing and "different". Apple made the
correct decision. Deal with it. There are tons of things I too miss
about the old PB, seperate editing windows, Cmd-8 find, indentation, etc.
that I really enjoyed. However, I have converted all my projects at work
and at home that I can convert over to the new PB. You should too.

Eric
Marcel Weiher
2000-10-02 20:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Peyton
However, I have converted all my projects at work
and at home that I can convert over to the new PB. You should too.
I'd love to, but we have to maintain OS-X-Server version, and not
just "maintain" but push forward...

If there were (a) a way to export projects to MacOS-X-Server (b)
convert new nib files to old, it would almost be a done deal. Right
now, it is a no go.

Marcel
Andreas Monitzer
2000-10-02 20:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Peyton
However, I have converted all my projects at work
and at home that I can convert over to the new PB. You should too.
I'd love to, but we have to maintain OS-X-Server version, and not just "maintain" but
push forward...
If there were (a) a way to export projects to MacOS-X-Server (b) convert new nib files to
old, it would almost be a done deal. Right now, it is a no go.
Since MacOSXS is a discontinued product, your problems will go away in time.

andy
Frederic Stark
2000-10-02 20:59:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcel Weiher
Post by Eric Peyton
However, I have converted all my projects at work
and at home that I can convert over to the new PB. You should too.
I'd love to, but we have to maintain OS-X-Server version, and not
just "maintain" but push forward...
If there were (a) a way to export projects to MacOS-X-Server (b)
convert new nib files to old, it would almost be a done deal. Right
now, it is a no go.
Absolutely. I can live without the project-export stuff (ie: writing
the tool to do that by hand). But nib files are a big no-go.

I really beleived in this XML nib files thing. Writing an XML nib
file loader on OSXS & YB/NT would have been a pain, but it would have
been *possible*.

Give me that, and I'll switch tomorrow.

Cheers,

--fred
Marcel Weiher
2000-10-02 21:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcel Weiher
Post by Marcel Weiher
If there were (a) a way to export projects to MacOS-X-Server (b)
convert new nib
Post by Marcel Weiher
files to
Post by Marcel Weiher
old, it would almost be a done deal. Right now, it is a no go.
Since MacOSXS is a discontinued product, your problems will go
away in time.

As they say: this turns out not to be the case. MacOS-X-Server can
be purchased from the Apple store, and is thus not a "discontinued"
product. Of course, it will be discontinued at some point in time in
the future, but the recommendation was to switch to the new
ProjectBuilder *now*, something that just isn't easily possible.

Marcel
Kristoffer Peterhansel
2000-10-03 06:24:25 UTC
Permalink
on 02/10/00 18:36, Eric Peyton at ***@epicware.com wrote:

[snip]
Post by Eric Peyton
Post by Frederic Stark
Second, I have yet to find how to do file level auto-completion. You
know, the little 'esc' thing that completed based on words present
in the current view.
Did you try hitting F5? That's the default for completion. Works fine
for me on one machine. On the other machine I have it set to use esc in my
~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict - see old posts on this (or
the text documentation with OS X).
Hmmm... That's for the old PB. Correct? I can't find anything on that
anyway. However it seems that the auto complete function is also on
Command-Shift-7. At least I get that instead of the \ I would really like to
get (it's REALLY annoying working with strings if you can't use \'s :( ). So
if I could remap that 'feature' I'd be really happy...

Of course I am on a Danish keyboard. And that's one of the problems with
shortcuts. They don't work well on other keyboards that the type the
developers have.

[snip]

Kristoffer Peterhänsel
- Just someone...
Eric Peyton
2000-10-03 11:05:36 UTC
Permalink
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